ROCOR and Moscow Reunification [sic]

[mtcarmel]

Greetings my zealous brothers!

You focus on the many and various expressions of non-canonicity, Sergianism, cult mentality, temporal canonicity gone sour, etc. At what point might you publically and humbly address the split in your own ROCOR? It seems that a number of the ROCOR memebers have returned to the Mother Church. While the schismatic ROCORians, again, remain in a figmant of the past. In this time, in these perilous days which have befallen us -- when multitudes and multitudes find trhemselves in the valley of decison -- what might you have to say about your former brothers with whom you co-labored for many years, bore the weight of the same burdens, as you each with holy compassion grieved that the Russian Church was divided by insidious historical forces?

It has been my impression that when the Synod was granted the ukase to remain aloof and devout, the time of reunion was thought to be simply a matter of months -- not years or decades or even a century. In 10-11 short years (should the Lord tarry) you shall be facing the 100th anniversay of the glorious founding of ROCOR. How shall you celebrate the anniversary of The Split from the Holy Church when at its holy foundation the Orthodox Faith is about union? I will not say unity because that is a chimera, indeed a false idea that brings our world to brink of ruin -- as we are seeing daily before our very American eyes.

What were the conditions laid down at the time which would signal that ROCOR and Moscow were to reunify?

Have those been met? Some think they have. Why do you not think the same?

mc

[Pravoslavnik]

Greetings my zealous brothers!

You focus on the many and various expressions of non-canonicity, Sergianism, cult mentality, temporal canonicity gone sour, etc. At what point might you publically and humbly address the split in your own ROCOR?

Mt. Carmel,

The recent split in our ROCOR has occurred precisely over the issue of Sergianism (and ecumenism) within the Moscow Patriarchate. Hence, your reply begs the original question: When did the Moscow Patriarchate cease being an uncanonical, Sergianist "church" administration?

It seems that a number of the ROCOR memebers have returned to the Mother Church. While the schismatic ROCORians, again, remain in a figmant of the past.

Again, your use of the term "schismatic ROCORians" begs the central question regarding the canonical legitimacy of the Moscow Patriarchate. Who are the real "schismatics" in the Russian Orthodox Church of the saints-- those who went under the Soviet-appointed pseudo-hierarchs who sought to destroy the true Church, or those who went under the administration blessed by the last free ukase of St. Tikhon-- i.e., St. John and the ROCOR. (Incidentally, St. John of San Francisco is not commemorated on the current MP calendar.)

In this time, in these perilous days which have befallen us -- when multitudes and multitudes find trhemselves in the valley of decison -- what might you have to say about your former brothers with whom you co-labored for many years, bore the weight of the same burdens, as you each with holy compassion grieved that the Russian Church was divided by insidious historical forces?

The very few old ROCOR parishioners from my parish who entered the new MP-ROCOR are either, 1) delusional, 2) senile, or 3) recent new members who were never really immersed in the traditions and praxis of the old ROCOR. Most of the members of the reorganized MP-ROCOR parish in my community are recent anti-American Soviet emigres who took over the parish shortly before May 17, 2007--some of whom used to refuse to venerate icons of the Royal Martyrs.

It has been my impression that when the Synod was granted the ukase to remain aloof and devout, the time of reunion was thought to be simply a matter of months -- not years or decades or even a century. In 10-11 short years (should the Lord tarry) you shall be facing the 100th anniversay of the glorious founding of ROCOR. How shall you celebrate the anniversary of The Split from the Holy Church when at its holy foundation the Orthodox Faith is about union? I will not say unity because that is a chimera, indeed a false idea that brings our world to brink of ruin -- as we are seeing daily before our very American eyes.

What were the conditions laid down at the time which would signal that ROCOR and Moscow were to reunify?

Have those been met? Some think they have. Why do you not think the same?

You could say as much about the Roman Catholic Church; Why have we not united with them? Why have we not united with the Protestants? With the Unitarians? One of the conditions for re-unification of the ROCOR with the Soviet Orthodox "church" administration in Russia included the re-establishment of free, proper canonical authority within the MP-- independent of the atheistic Soviet state hierarchy of the KGB. This was the explicit position of the ROCOR Synod for decades. Yet, the current hierarchs of the MP are all appointees and agents of the former Soviet state, including the recently elected Moscow Patriarch Kyril (Gundayev) and the recently reposed Patriarch Alexey II (Ridiger), a decorated KGB agent with the code name "Drozhdov." Hence, the conditions for proper unification of the ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate had not been achieved at the time of the takeover of the ROCOR (MP) by the MP in 2007. It was rather a fait accompli of the KGB, infiltrating and taking over the ROCOR Synod from within, particularly through the efforts of ROCOR Archbishop Mark (Arndt) of Berlin and Metropolitan Laurus (Skurla.)

mc

[joasia]

Zealous brothers?? Does that mean that the women of the Orthodox faith have no invitation to reply?

Well, too bad. I will anyway. You seem to be an advocate of the OCA. Their theology is based on the opinion of their hierarch and whatever his whims are(a self-proclaimed pope). Orthodoxy is a state of right(straight) faith, canonically, theologically and spiritually. All you need to do is read up on the early century saints and martyrs and you will see the spiritual depth of their teachings compared to what your sources of this century teach. All you need to do is study and compare.

Do you want to know the truth are are you just agruing because you don't understand?

[mtcarmel]

Zealous brethren and sistern:

I meant "brethren" in the genric sense. No offense intended.

What might have been the conditions set up by the ROCOR in the beginning by which the ROCOR would be able to recognize the time for reunification when it arrived?

Clearly a segment of those who were once in ROCOR have reunited with Moscow. What was their justification? What conditions were met that indicated to at least some in ROCOR that the time had arrived?

mtcarmel

[quote="joasia"]Zealous brothers?? the women of the Orthodox faith have no invitation to reply? Do you want to know the truth are are you just agruing because you don't understand?[/quote]

[joasia]

Zealous brethren and sistern:

I meant "brethren" in the genric sense. No offense intended.

What? Do you think I'm illeterate? Brother and brethern apply to the male. And what does "sistern" mean? It certainly doesn't mean sister. No offense? You are digging deeper into it.

All you do is point out the politics in ROCOR and the MP. What are you asking? You obviously already have the anwer for yourself. Do you know anything about the struggle of the Orthodox faith? I'd like to see your response to that...if you can.

[mtcarmel]

I appreciate your civil, informed reply.

You mention "One of the conditions for re-unification of the ROCOR with the Soviet Orthodox " -- implying that there exists other conditions, as well.

A few years ago I read a list of perhaps 6-7 criteria for reunification.

I recall one being the recognition of the holy martyrs of Russia during and in the aftermath of the Bolshevik Revolution. This seems to have happened. I would think that other items on the list have also been accomplished historical facts.

Certainly it cannot be asserted in these times that the current Russian government is in any way complicit in the same way or to the same degree in the "Sergianizing" of the Russian Church. For instance, Christ the Savior Cathedral was rebuilt. Many churches have been re-opened and people are free to be baptised again in public. The Russian Church and government appear to be united in fighting non-Orthodox religious cults, preventing groups from converting Russian souls to other non-Orthodox belief systems. Russian leaders have gone to church and have worshiped publically.

The patriarchal Church is no longer marginalized and its leaders are not prevented from exercising their pristhood in public not are they being carted off to Gulags en masse.

I would think the plan to fire the careerist Russian/Soviet clergy would be somewhat similar to the blunder made by the US in disolving the Iraqi army regulars and starting from scratch. Political considerations... The chaos in the aftermath of such a purge would or could lead to a fresh revolution. Why not let the old geezers die out and let nature take its course. The Lord taught us to "allow the wheat and the tares to grow together". The angels are the ones to cast down and lift up according to God's will.

Or so it seems to me....

elias

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you wrote:

"One of the conditions for re-unification of the ROCOR with the Soviet Orthodox "church" administration in Russia included the re-establishment of free, proper canonical authority within the MP-- independent of the atheistic Soviet state hierarchy of the KGB. This was the explicit position of the ROCOR Synod for decades. Yet, the current hierarchs of the MP are all appointees and agents of the former Soviet state, including the recently elected Moscow Patriarch Kyril (Gundayev) and the recently reposed Patriarch Alexey II (Ridiger), a decorated KGB agent with the code name "Drozhdov." Hence, the conditions for proper unification of the ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate had not been achieved at the time of the takeover of the ROCOR (MP) by the MP in 2007. It was rather a fait accompli of the KGB, infiltrating and taking over the ROCOR Synod from within, particularly through the efforts of ROCOR Archbishop Mark (Arndt) of Berlin and Metropolitan Laurus (Skurla.)"

[mtcarmel]

I didnt expect that Western secular feminist assertions would be an issue among traditionalist Orthodox thinkers.

No offense intended.

elias

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you wrote:

What? Do you think I'm illeterate? Brother and brethern apply to the male. And what does "sistern" mean? It certainly doesn't mean sister. No offense? You are digging deeper into it.

Zealous brethren and sistern:

I meant "brethren" in the genric sense. No offense intended.