Question: The Layman Heretic?

[Savva24]

Dear All,

I had a question that has been on my mind for about two weeks now. I wonder if this is the right section to put this in but it is a question maybe some of us had practically had to deal with so I thought ''Praxis'' might be the place.

Well I think that many of us would agree that if our Bishop or parish priest or Jurisdiction was very ecumenical, believed thoroughly in the Branch theory, believed Catholics are the other lung of the Church or communed Non-Chaldeconians and so on, we would be obliged to find another church, bishop or jurisdiction. At least I would. But what about a layman that partakes of the same chalice with you, attends services with you and prays with you? What do you do when you find out someone in your parish is an avid Ecumenist? Could you partake of the same Chalice after him/her with a clean conscience? I guess the first thing to do is tell the priest right? What if the priest does not agree with the layman but lets things remain as they are, allowing the layman to partake of the gifts and all? I think that in the average ROCOR parish the priest would question the layman and if he continued to hold the same views after their conversation, the priest would not allow them to receive the gifts until they accepted the Orthodox view. I say this because I know of two examples where this happened in ROCOR.

I am curious because I know of a situation where this is the case. The layman is an American convert [well hardly] from Evangelical Protestantism who converted here in Japan. After talking with him, I learned that he believed entirely in the branch theory, that he didn't agree with many of the Ecumenical Councils, and that many of the councils and saints (particularly those who condemned heretics) were ''angry, hateful men'', among many other bad beliefs. Suffice it to say that if I started listing all of his heretical beliefs it would take me too long. Anyway, I told the priest where he goes to church. And he said that his beliefs were very wrong but the priest doesn’t speak English and the layman doesn't speak Japanese so he said it would be impossible for them to communicate. He then told me to try and work on talking with him and try to convince him. However, I feel like, as I am a great sinner, it is too much of a responsibly for me. Talking too him kind of drives me nuts because he knows everything already and won't listen to me. Our last discussion ended with a rather heated argument on the topic and left me very depressed for some time. 　There is one priest who speaks very good English and communicates with him but he is either too timid to tell the layman straight or perhaps, even worst, agrees with him. Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

In Christ,

Nicholas (savva)

[TomS]

Posted by ania in the "Ramblings" thread and the best advice I have heard in a long time!

... I learned not to judge not through reading Church Fathers (though they of course talk about it), but from my mother saying to us in a stern voice when we would start making comments about people "Sami za sebya sledite, Bog vas ne budit sprashevat a ihnih grehah !"

Translation: Concentrate on yourselves, God won't ask you about their sins !

[Savva24]

Posted by ania in the "Ramblings" thread and the best advice I have heard in a long time!

... I learned not to judge not through reading Church Fathers (though they of course talk about it), but from my mother saying to us in a stern voice when we would start making comments about people "Sami za sebya sledite, Bog vas ne budit sprashevat a ihnih grehah !"

Translation: Concentrate on yourselves, God won't ask you about their sins !

Indeed, Wonderful Advice! I hope I wasn't judging this person or concentrating too much on someone else’s sins like it is suggested. Perhaps I was, as you probably know, it is a lot harder to see oneself than for others to see you. So perhaps you did perceive and point out my problem. However, I would still very much like to hear some other opinions. If most of you tell me to mind my business and not worry about this, I am certainly not inclined to do the opposite. In fact, as I am pretty self interested anyway, I would much rather do that than think about this situation.
For clarities sake, I think that I would like to restate and sum up my original post in two questions as I think I asked so many questions without expressing myself succinctly. Here goes ;

1. Does the patristic obligation to flee from heretical beliefs extend to heretical Laymen? I ask this only because I see some of the canons condemn members of the clergy with ''let them be deposed'' and also laymen with ''let them be excommunicated''. I would have always argued ''NO'' we shouldn't in the past because where would you draw the line? Every individual is going to believe something wrong somewhere that doesn't agree with the Church, especially in our opinionated and individualistic age and culture. And also, we have people from all walks of life who naturally have much baggage that needs time to wear off and which we must be very patient with. My question pertains to those who have learned well what the Church teaches and still chooses to reject and keep what they like (For example any one or more of the Ecumenical councils which I would think are the bare minimum of necessary Orthodox belief). If this is a stupid question, please tell me.

1. Should those laymen who persist in un-Orthodox beliefs be refrained from Holy Communion until they give up their heresies? (It is not really a matter of judging the layman in question. Actually he is my friend and I am worried about him, spiritually.) I say this because I have always learned that Holy Communion can be the Spiritual Life for those prepared for it and the Spiritual Death for those who are not. Of course we are never really worthy of it but St. Paul does speak of people getting sick and dying from partaking unworthily of the Sacrament. I know of several examples in ROCOR churches where people were refused Communion until giving up a heretical view. After I re-accepted Orthodoxy in college after many years of traveling a very sinful path, I was refused Communion for some time after my Confession until the priest felt I had enough time away from my sins and could approach the Sacrament. And I would consider believing heresy as something that would fall into the category of being unprepared for Holy Communion.
   It seems that many in the more modernist Juristicions don't view this ''dangerous'' aspect of Holy Communion. From what I have seen there is a tendency to look at it as a kind of holy magic that needs to be taken no matter what. I understand that people like Alexander Smemman were fighting against the awful practice of people taking Communion so infrequently, but I think that they went too far in the other direction (perhaps not Fr. Alexander personally but those who follow him and his ideas). One of my friends said that as long as the layman was taking Communion he would be O.K and that it should heal his wrong views (like magic?). I don't think that this would be too different from what most people would tell me in the more non traditional jurisdictions. But perhaps his view has some truth to it; perhaps it shows more faith in the Sacrament than I may have and that my view is skewed. I don't know; that is why I am asking here.

Anyway, these are the questions I have been struggling with lately. I would appreciate if the more knowledgeable on this list would address them. Looking forward to your responses and corrections.

In Christ,

Nicholas (Savva)

P.S 　Iｆ　it turns out that I am making a big deal out of nothing and that I should mind my own business, I will be very relieved. The layman’s priest told me flat out that I am ‘’the only one that could help him’’ (talk about pressure) being that there are not any other native English speakers around and also insinuating that the other English speaking priest is not capable for some reason of helping (probably because he is too busy). I really want no part of such responsibility and would love to just ignore the situation if it were up to me. But my conscience (and even the Japanese priest) is telling me otherwise.

[TomS]

Personally, I would not try to change his mind by debating him on these issues. If he believes the things you say he does, and yet he is still attending the Liturgy, then God is already working on him.

Befriend him, but do not debate him. Let him see your example. That is all you can do. Otherwise, you will just add to his perceptions of the Church and it's people.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Judging is much like estimating.

If a person has told you, knowing what another person believes is not judging them. People here know much of what I believe, have they judged me? Certainly not. And there is no diference if that faith is true or heretical.

Nicholas, I would say it is the responsiblility of the priest, now knowing what you have told him, not to commune this individual since it is to his condemnation. In our church, it is not unheard of nor is it a bad thing for someone to be excommunicated for 40 days. I have even heard of a year or more. This is done to protect the person.

I would tell the priest that you strongly feel something must be done for this persons sake. And tell him, as loveingly as you can, that if nothing is done you will write your bishop, this is just too serious.

I mean really, if you were in a hospital, and a man kept eating poison, and the doctor did nothing about it, would you not feel compelled to talk to the cheif surgeon?

In addition, I would let the priest know that you cannot commune in good conscience as long as this person was. This does not mean you can start your own synod Nicholas, but the priest must know his pastoral duty here.

Just some comments from a first reaction...

[Natasha]

I pretty much agree with OOD about this. I don't understand how the priest could lay all of this on your shoulders. That just doesn't seem fair or right to me.

[Justin Kissel]

Savva24

Indeed, Wonderful Advice! I hope I wasn't judging this person or concentrating too much on someone else’s sins like it is suggested.

Well, as OOD pointed out, there is a difference between judging someone's sins and making a dispassionate judgement concerning their doctrine. Saint James asked, "There is one law giver who is able to save and destroy: who art thou that judgest another?" (James 4:12) and yet: "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a mulitude of sins." (James 5:19-20) The same types of passages (illustrating this distinction) can be found in Saint Paul (e.g., Rom. 2:1; 14:4, 13 and 1 Tim. 4:16)

There is still, of course, other problems with the issue. Saint James also says "be not many teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation" (James 3:1). There's a good reason that many fathers told people to keep their mouths shut: it's much better for a person's salvation. The major exception is whenever someone else is falling into condemnation, in which case we may need to warn them. We should resist the temptation to think of ourselves as needing to help someone, for God could "get through" to someone in 1,001 different ways. We only need help someone if it is indeed God's will that we help them, and then we do it as a servant (or son, if you prefer) doing the work of the Master/Father.

In a case like yours, it seems that at least trying to talk (again) might be a good idea. It is right to say that we are going to be judged based on what we did... but then, one of God's questions might be: "why did you let him wallow in the mud [ie. heresy]?" We are commanded to give food to the hungry, and drink to the thirsty: should we refrain from trying to take dangerous food away from someone and trying to give them good spiritual food in it's place? We usually take some of these passages "physically," but what will happen if we get to heaven and God says, "I was hungry, and you would not give me bread," to which we reply "Lord, when were you hungry?" to which He might respond, "When you saw your friend in heresy; whatsoever you did for your friend, you did for me".

Most of the time we aren't used by God to try and talk at all about such things with those who are going astray. If we are used, though (or if we decide to try on our own, apart from any direction given by God), we need not worry too much over it. In the end, we have to rely on God and his power and knowledge. God knows what has the best "shot" at bringing someone back to Orthodox faith. We need not pull our own hairs out to do so, though we might cry along the way (not because of our own failures to reach someone, but because they are still holding to error). If you are having a priest essentially tell you to do it, then I'd say you should at least try once again.

Layman who hold to heretical beliefs should indeed not be able to partake of holy communion, for their sake and for everyone elses. I think this is applicable in all cases. I agree that we all have wrong beliefs, but I would maintain that few of us have beliefs that we know contradict the Church, but keep them anyway. We are not to be "heresy hunters" as Orthodox Christians: a priest does not, for example, examine the doctrine of each person in his parish before giving communion and demand that they "update him" of any changes. It is assumed that if you are trying to follow the Church, then you will have right belief (since that want, and action, will lead to knowledge).

However, when someone starts saying that the Church has been wrong, and therefore that he can basically choose to disagree with the mind of the fathers whenever he wants, then this whole thing falls apart. What to do with such a person, I don't know. It's not a fair answer to say "mind your own business," because, even apart from the above things (about possibly having to witness to the truth), this does apparently effect you personally. Could you partake of the same communion or not? I really don't know the answer to that. I would refrain when in his presence, though I would do so quietly and not make any declarations about my thoughts as to the status of him or the communion he was partaking in. Then again, your priest my counsel you otherwise.

Justin