Byzantine Icons vs. Western Religious Art

[Maria]

In Roman Catholicism, there are sickly representations of the Blessed Virgin Mary that seemed to border on the sacrilegious. For example, there is the famous painting where an artist used a woman with child from the street as a model for the Most Holy Virgin.

Madonna of the Streets.jpg (56.67 KiB) Viewed 2924 times

And then there are artists who use a model with neither a veil nor a halo to depict the Most Holy Theotokos as seen below.

true-devotion-to-mary-1003301-bestseller.png (66.64 KiB) Viewed 2924 times

However, Orthodoxy's veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos attracted and captivated me. Icons of the Most Holy Theotokos in Holy Orthodoxy are based on the Icons painted by St. Luke the Evangelist. These icons depict the ever-Virginity of the Theotokos by having three stars on her veil.

Maybe Father Photios can share his knowledge of those icons painted by St. Luke the Evangelist and post some images of her.

[Matthew]

In Roman Catholicism, there are sickly representations of the Blessed Virgin Mary that seemed to border on the sacrilegious. ...

However, Orthodoxy's veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos attracted and captivated me. Icons of the Most Holy Theotokos in Holy Orthodoxy are based on the Icons painted by St. Luke the Evangelist. These icons depict the ever-Virginity of the Theotokos by having three stars on her veil.

Maybe Father Photios can share his knowledge of those icons painted by St. Luke the Evangelist and post some images of her.

I am totally with you on these points too! I cannot begin to say how horrified I am by art forms that are popular and to be found in Catholic Churches. While the examples you have posted are indeed very low and unworthy examples of how the Holy Theotokos should be presented--being so totally naturalistic and commonplace, they often border on the grotesque. I will post two Roman Catholic popular "Virgin Mary" art expressions that are an insult and inspire disgust rather than awe and veneration, and the third is the example I put up before of the "Resurrection" sculpture that they have at one of the main "Worship Centres" (for I daren't call it a Church) .... here it is:

[jgress]

I doubt that the intention of the first painting was to scandalize. Her bare breast no doubts alludes to her role as nurse. Whether showing a bare breast in a religious painting indicates a more general depravity in the society of the time (15th century France) is another question: I would need to know more about the history of such depictions in Western religious art.

I see it as the product of a genuine devotional feeling towards the Virgin Mary, even if expressed in a way that is inappropriate from the point of view of traditional (Orthodox) Christian iconography.

[Maria]

There are Byzantine Icons that depict the Virgin Theotokos breastfeeding. These show the Virgin fully clothed with the Infant Christ fully swaddled and not naked.

[Maria]

Here is a Byzantine icon for comparison:

[jgress]

I don't think the painter of the first Madonna (Jean Fouquet) was intending to scandalize. I think it shows a worldly approach to religious painting (the model was supposed to be the mistress of King Charles XII, chosen simply because she was beautiful), and so indicates in some way the fall from grace of the Papal Church. I'm not sure I would want to call it "porn". Or if this is porn, then so are ancient pagan statues showing nude human bodies, which were meant to glorify the human form, but not to excite sexually. To me, for something to be pornographic the intent behind it must be to excite, and I have a hard time believing that was Fouquet's intent.

A Catholic traditionalist would agree that the modern sculptures are in bad taste, but he would feel uncomfortable attacking something from the 15th century, which would be an "age of piety" for him.

[Maria]

I think it shows a worldly approach to religious painting (the model was supposed to be the mistress of King Charles XII, chosen simply because she was beautiful), and so indicates in some way the fall from grace of the Papal Church.

A Catholic traditionalist would agree that the modern sculptures are in bad taste, but he would feel uncomfortable attacking something from the 15th century, which would be an "age of piety" for him.

Those Catholic traditionalists who are part of the Eastern Catholic Church do indeed shutter when they view Renaissance Art that depicts Christ as man, but denies His Divinity.