Theodora Elizabeth wrote:Tom ~
Not trying to be an Orthodox "Pharisee." I was asking out of simple curiousity.
Theodora Elizabeth
I was certainly not accusing you as being one. I am sorry if you took it that way.
I was simply saying that there ARE Orthodox Pharisees and that they are quick to point out what other Orthodox are doing "wrong".
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OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:If new-calendarists wish to change their services to make it more convenient and easy, which they have been doing now for a long time, I not only will not say anything, I expect that sooner or later they will succeed in changing everything (like the Latins). Indeed, the salt shall loose it savor whereever there is not the Grace of God. What I object to is any claim that this is the Orthodox way, because even now, after many hundreds of years, we are still having to defend simple things like levened bread. They can call us "Pharisees" and whatever else, but in the end we will still have all the treasures of the Church.
I can pretty much agree with this statement.
I general, I don't object to Holy Tradition. I am only saying that SOME parts of it have been left up to man to complete and modify to suit the times. The difficult part is determining which parts.
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I remember someone posted something along the lines, a person asked his priest if it was ok to eat a ham sandwich while he was praying, and of course the priest said no. A year later he asked his priest, is it ok to pray while I am eating a ham sandwich? 
I suppose Tom, and I think you would agree, there are different types of changes and "adjustments". Some much more serious than others.
In the end, I think if Theodora is in agreement with the Orthodoxy, both faith and practice, of the bishops in her communion, she should follow them and their pastoral advice.
Please understand that I am not trying to stir up any trouble. I came here to learn from those more traditional in their Orthodoxy than I currently practice it. I hadn't really come across any explanations as to the stance on Vesperal Divine Liturgies, so that is why I asked the question.
I'll admit, there are some things about the Antiochians I don't like (like the lack of a monastic presence in the States), but I am fortunate that my parish is more conservative than most (down to no pews). But I've made myself a home in this parish and I would have a very diffcult time moving (these folks are more than family to me, due to living away from my family). The thought of actually moving away whenever I get married is very sad. I've even ended some promising on-line correpondences since I really don't want to move. Also, the Rocor cathedral (within a half-hour drive) is, I am told, all Slavonic liturgically. The Rocor parish waaay out in the burbs (something like a 90 minute drive) is, I am told by someone knowledgeable (parishioner at Rocor parish in Michigan), the English-language community that used to be at the cathedral.
Theodora Elizabeth
OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:I suppose Tom, and I think you would agree, there are different types of changes and "adjustments". Some much more serious than others.
Absolutely. And therin lies the danger. What adjustments are not dangerous to the Faith.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
Theodora Elizabeth wrote:Please understand that I am not trying to stir up any trouble. I came here to learn from those more traditional in their Orthodoxy than I currently practice it. I hadn't really come across any explanations as to the stance on Vesperal Divine Liturgies, so that is why I asked the question.
You are certainly not stirring up any trouble. And your questions are welcome.
And once again, I am sorry if you felt my response was in any way rebuking you or your question. It was not at all meant that way. There are just different levels of what exactly is important in Orthodox Traditional Praxis. And I was just giving you mine.
You will find that mine is considered fairly liberal here. That's because I came from a Protestant background and am a member of the Greek Orthodox Church.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
1) Vespers or a Vigil is a perfectly acceptable way to worship God on an evening of a feast.
2) If for pastoral necessity a Eucharistic service is to be done the night before, it should be Matins followed by Divine Liturgy--not a weird Vesperal DL.
3) If a parish were really poius they could do an All-Night Vigil starting at around 4 pm which would finsih around 8-9. Then people could come when they are able.
anastasios
Disclaimer: Many older posts were made before my baptism and thus may not reflect an Orthodox point of view.
Please do not message me with questions about the forum or moderation requests. Jonathan Gress (jgress) will be able to assist you.
Please note that I do not subscribe to "Old Calendar Ecumenism" and believe that only the Synod of Archbishop Kallinikos is the canonical GOC of Greece. I do believe, however, that we can break down barriers and misunderstandings through prayer and discussion on forums such as this one.
