80 years = eternity

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


User avatar
TomS
Protoposter
Posts: 1010
Joined: Wed 4 June 2003 8:26 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by TomS »

joasia wrote:

I think that the concept of eternal damnation brought down by the hand of God is a Protestant and Catholic(papist) interpretation. The Orthodox teachings always emphasize that a person has to come to his own realization of his acts in order to repent(turn around) and he is received by God because the person wants to be received. Repentence is a sharp sting to a person's pride. And I think that, that is what makes it so painful, but when that person doesn't care about the sting anymore, then the acceptance is so joyful.

So are you proposing that it is possible to be saved after death? And please do not respond with "We don't know". I am interested to hear what YOU think.

----------------------------------------------------
They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

User avatar
joasia
Protoposter
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue 29 June 2004 7:19 pm
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Location: Montreal

Post by joasia »

So are you proposing that it is possible to be saved after death?

What do you mean by "after death"? Do you mean, at the time of death? Or when already dead?

What part of my quote do you analyse? Are you referring to a protestant belief?

Joanna

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

The Apostate

Post by The Apostate »

Dear Tom,

Christ is risen!

I am sorry that this is something with which you are struggling. It was difficult for me, as well.

For what it's worth, I think that Father Mark summed it up very well in his first post, and that subsequent posts by others have reiterated this well. God is not an angry God, Who desires to punish us for all eternity. Rather, God is a loving God Who desires to bring us unto Himself, in His love, to share eternally in His energies. The point and purpose of the Christian life is for us, through prayer, ascetic efforts, and participation in the life of Christ's Church, to open ourselves to the grace of God whereby he moulds and shapes us into His purpose for us, to share in his energies of love, life, splendour, holiness, &c. This is what St Peter tells us when he says that we are to share in the divine nature, and St Payl when he says that we shall see "face to face", and know as we are known. This is what theosis is.

Gor brings us all into His presence, to be eternally exposed to His radiant burning love and His energies, but our experience of that presence depends on whether we have striven to conform ourselves to His energies or not.

Holy Scripture seems to support this, as it containthere are numrous examples of how, before Christ had once again opened the gate to our theosis by his Ascension (taking the human nature into the divine nature), man was unable to countenance the holiness of God: (Ex 24:15-17; Ex 33:18-20; Numbers 3:13-15; 1 Chronicles 13:9-10; Matthew 17:1-7). We see this explicitly in the last case, where the traditional icon of the Transfiguration shows the disciples unable to gaze upon the brilliance of the transfigured Christ.

As for your question of whether a temporal decision merits an eternal result, others have asked this question in the past, and there is a brief article on it here. If you'd like to read more, may I suggest Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev's The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian? I don't necessarily agree with St Isaac but I can understand how it is possible to believe in suffering as a temporal state, and part of the process of theosis without buying into catholic Purgatory, with its ideas about paying back some temporal debt of sin as pat of a legalistic transaction.

I hope this is helpful.

In Christ Risen,
Michael

User avatar
joasia
Protoposter
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue 29 June 2004 7:19 pm
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Location: Montreal

Post by joasia »

Hi Tom,

Christ is Risen?

What is this 80 years thing? You never explained it to anyone. Is this something you learnt in your Protestant circles? It's certainly nothing that sounds Orthodxy.

Joanna

P.S. Congradulations....you know what I mean.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

The Apostate

Post by The Apostate »

It's from Psalm 89 (90, in the Masoretic numbering), joasia.

The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. (KJV)

User avatar
TomS
Protoposter
Posts: 1010
Joined: Wed 4 June 2003 8:26 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by TomS »

joasia wrote:

Hi Tom,

Christ is Risen?

What is this 80 years thing? You never explained it to anyone. Is this something you learnt in your Protestant circles? It's certainly nothing that sounds Orthodxy.

Joanna

P.S. Congradulations....you know what I mean.

No. 80 years is just about the average lifespan. That is why I used the tidle in front of it, to signify "around that time".

Tom

P.S.S No, I don't know what you mean

----------------------------------------------------
They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

User avatar
joasia
Protoposter
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue 29 June 2004 7:19 pm
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Location: Montreal

Post by joasia »

Tom,

I'm not familiar with this Psalm. What is it that makes you question it? What's your focus.

As far as the question if I believe that we will be saved after death...I don't know...how can I? It's like you're asking me to know how it feels to walk on the moon. I've never been there. So, the only answer that I can give is the one that you asked me not to give...I don't know. How can you expect me to answer any other way?

P.S.S No, I don't know what you mean

Sorry. I'm two months ahead of myself.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

Post Reply