CHRIST IS RISEN!
Paul,
I'll try to answer some of your questions as best I can. I was a Catholic too. My baptism was on May 1st, 1994. In God's Eye's I have only lived a life that will be accounted for, by Him, 13 years. Everything else Idid before has been washed away by Holy Baptism; I died with Christ and was Ressurected with a new soul. All my previous sins, before the baptism were washed away.
I wanted to ask you if you would still leave the Catholic church if the apostate Vatican II council hadn't occured and if it was still using the traditional mass and taught the dogmas it had always taught
I know this comment was intended for Drewmeister, so please forgive me for butting in. The real issue goes farther back, the Great Schism of 1054 A.D. It was the culmination of many years of falling away, on the part of the See of Rome. So, if they had never severed concelebration with the other four Patriarchs and stayed in wholeness with them, then there would be no schism and we would be one body. Or I should say, together for one body refers to the Holy Apostolic Church and even if it has only a handful of memebers, it is the fullness of Christ's Church which He established with the Apostles on Pentecost. Anything the See of Rome did after that was widening the gap. They refused to admit that they were allowing themselves to sin in pride and greed.
What convinced you that Orthodoxy was the true path to salvation?
The Orthodox holy fathers teach that the preservation of the Apostolic Succession is crucial. We cannot have men who believe in all the doctrines, but become renegades and seperate to create their own "churches". All hierarchs of the true lineage of the Apostolic Church, must be consecrated by one who was before him. This is what cleared the fog in my heart. I read the history of the successions of hierarchs from the time of the Apostles and found myself looking at the Orthodox Church. I was shocked when I learnt about the Great Schism. It was a clear division or split and then the rest was obvious.
Also, doesn't it produce some sort of fear in you that the true Catholic Church has always taught that absolutely nobody who dies outside the church will be saved and this can be traced very early in writings from St. Cyril, St. Ambrose, St. Gregory the Great, St. Cyprian, St. Chrysostom and many others.
I wouldn't lump the Orthodox saints with the catholic church. They are at opposite spectrums. The holy fathers teach that nobody can be save without Christ. That has to be the first definite FACT. What God judges with those who believe that Jesus is God and our Saviour is none of our business. But, if someone doesn't believe in Jesus Christ as our Saviour Who died for our sins so that we can attain His Kingdom, then how can they enter it? It's all a matter of free will, Brother. If a person refuses to enter into a neighbor's home, when he is invited, then he will not enter. Let's not blame God for judging people because mankind makes it's own decisions. There are many people who refused to come onto Christ(and He is always calling), so they CHOOSE, not to enter His Kingdom. And when they died, where could they go, if they refuse to turn in that direction. After death, their souls are in the state that they leave their bodies. They had made their decision, whether it was to believe or not. And I don't know where that led them. But, prayer does eleviate the soul's state...so even if you are not Orthodox, pray for those that have moved on. All prayers count and for all people.
And there is also another very important factor to remember....God judges us by how much we know about Him. When we know more, we are judged for more. So if a person starts learning about Orthodox teachings by the holy fathers, then he/she has stepped into a higher ring. When you're a baby, you eat baby food, but when you are an adult you eat adult food. Imagine an adult who says that he eats only baby food. That would not benefit his body at the older stage; it would harm it, although it is very good for a baby's growth.
I like to use the Creed of Nicea as the blueprint of the points that a Christian should believe. Every organization of the world has their own list, but the Creed is the essential factor of the Christian faith. If someone disagrees with even ONE point, then they are not 100% followers of Jesus Christ and the church He established for us. Put it to the test and you'll see. So the full truth is found in the Orthodox faith.
Outside the Church there is no Salvation
Outside of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation. And since Jesus established a specific Church, then every soul who loves Christ should make every effort to find that one true Church. And I'm not talking about a feel-good church...I'm talking about the Apostolic Succession. Develop that spiritual GPS and follow it...destination, God's Kingdom.
Also, True Catholics relate to Vatican II and the blasphemous and demonic antipopes that reigned following that council, in the same way that the True Orthodox relate to the sergianist church in russia or the new calendar ecumenists.
Well, the "True Catholics" are in the same boat as the Pope, they are just more conservative, but non-the-less, heretic in their dogmas. Both Catholic groups do not have the Holy Spirit. And they certainly have never produced a true saint. The fruits of the heretics are rotten. The Orthodox faith dilemma is based on wrong teachings, but no Orthodox saint would ademently state that there is no Holy Grace in the new calendar church, no matter how worldly they are because there was never an Ecumenical Council that addressed that issue. There were local councils with their own viewpoints, but on the "universal" scale of Orthodoxy, it was never approached. But, there was an anathema proclaimed against the See of Rome. Any group that was split from that, fell further away. As far as what Patriarch Bartholowmew and Alexeii are doing, it is a shame and best be avoided. But, they are moving closer to the Papists and there should be an Ecumenical Council of all the Orthodox Churches to decide once and for all. Unfortunately, the eight EC will be one that moves towards satan and so we have to preserve the Orthodox line detached from them.
We can visit the sick, but avoid injecting ourselves with their blood.
A person unsure of what Church is true, should choose the one church that claims to be the absolutely only way to salvation.
So choose wisely.
Also, the Orthodox say that the early notion of rome and supremacy was not anything like its claims in the 11th century compared to the early church. Yet this claim seems to be not true when you read numerous references to the right the apostle St. Peter was granted as head of the church by fathers like St. Leo the Great
St. Peter was considered the FIRST amongst equals. He was not considered the head. I suspect the version you are reading was written by a non-Orthodox and twists the meaning. The Head of the Church is Jesus Christ...always has been. Nowhere does it state that the See of Rome was superior above all the other Sees. St. Paul chastised St. Peter for being so close-minded because St. Peter thought that all men should be circumcised by tradition. St. Paul, who was always staunch in his ways(when he was known as Saul), argued that the Gentiles are not a product of Judaism and that the new Covenant does not require them to follow the same rules. The law of the Jews was of the letter...the law of the Chrisitians is of the spirit. We should circumsize our souls...meaning make the covenant spiritually. The law of the letter became dead law. The law of the spirit is a living law.
This is only one example, but a very significant one, if you believe in the Bible. Even during the lives of the Apostles, AFTER Pentecost...St. Peter was not considered supreme. It's the Vatican that creates that illusion. It does not take away from his great blessedness. But, if he was the ultimate head of the Church then all males would still be circumsized.
BTW. St. Peter was never bishop of Rome. He went to Rome when the Romans arrested him and he went to visit the Bishop there. He was crucified upside down, in Rome. Linus was the bishop then. And Adrian I was the first "Pope".
The west too had saints in the church during those years and many of them explicitly make reference to Rome in the exact way that Abbe Guetee and other historical revisionists try to state was absent from record. Perhaps the Orthodox position is correct and Abbe Guetee's The Papacy and other writings similar to it are just over done?
The saints always showed respect for the See of Rome, but never an obedience to it as a head. The Seven Ecumenical Councils were an equal voting system. If the See of Rome was superior than
there would have been a distinct verdict of the Councils set by the Bishop of Rome. It was majority rules and the Holy Spirit is the majority.
The west too had saints in the church during those years and many of them explicitly make reference to Rome in the exact way that Abbe Guetee and other historical revisionists try to state was absent from record. Perhaps the Orthodox position is correct and Abbe Guetee's The Papacy and other writings similar to it are just over done?
I'm confused by this statement. Abbe Guetee was stating the exact same thing that the Orthodox stated. If you're saying that Abbe Guetee and the saints showed a clear understanding of how the papists were LYING about the supremacy of the See of Rome, then I agree.
This is the perfect place to discuss this. Feel free to converse. That is what the moderators want. We learn from each other. We all have somekind of knowledge or another, so we can share.
And the clergy here are very knowledgeable.
In Christ, Joanna
. No, I don't think Feeneyites were really Catholics, not after they were excommunicated. Even Abp. Lefebvre never held Fr. Feeney's views. I will see if I can find a link about the Filioque.