New Bishop for the Kyrikite-Romano-Kenyan Synod

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Constantine
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Post by Constantine »

Who would enter in communion with a church that is itself in communion with another church that you declare schismatic?

Exactly my point my friend, the florinites RECEIVED there bishops via rocor who used the NC, communed with NC and the EP, the florinites had at that point said the NC and EP is schismatic and heretical. Not only that but they pursued full communion with rocor. So to answer your question the florinites would.

So entering in communion with ROCOR (that was in communion with the Florinites) they fell under their own condemnation of Florinites?

By using your logic, the florinites fell under their own anathema against the NC by being concecrated by rocor and communing with them, and if you recognize their Bishops, you must recognize grace in the NC, there-by falling under their anathema. They have condemed themselves by their actions which differ from
their "ecclesiology", which once again proves what i was trying to explain on the Where is the Church? topic.

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Jean-Serge
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Post by Jean-Serge »

Let's follow the Matthewite logic or lack of logic...

1° Florinites are schismatics

2° ROCOR has entered in communion with Florinites

So ROCOR becomes uncanonical.

But knowing this, the Matthewites enter in communion with ROCOR. The conclusion is clear : from a Matthewite point of view, the Matthewite condemned themselves by entering in communion with a jurisidiction (ROCOR) that was in communion with a schismatic group (the Florinites). So a honest matthewite must acknowledge his church became uncanonical too.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

...

Post by ... »

Constantine wrote:

the Matthewites met did not know, they did not have the documents sent to the florinites by rocor in 1961 explaining there ecclesiology.

This is so not true! The blessed Met. Epiphanios of Kition had admitted that Eugenios Tombros already knew that Theophilus was "heretic"...prior to 1971 !

Also for those who can read greek Met. Epiphanios had written a long letter conserning the situation of those times. (It is published in "Orthodoxo Pateriko Salpisma")

In pg .575 we can read a very confessing letter from Met. Philaret to Epiphanius, who says that the Greek bishops have a very small folk which can easily be controled. In the contrary he has dioceses spread all over the world and cannot be iformed what every single priest thinks and practices. He "repremants" the Matthewites bishops for keep asking from him (again and again) to expose ROCOR's ecclesiology and for being scandalised so easily by individual incidents.

He expressly says that they do NOT commune NCs nor conselebrate with them! In the footnote No 9 we can read that even after entering in full communion with the greek bishops they stopped using the economia of allowing some parishes to use the NC.

It is obvious that the ROCORites (priests and folk) were in a period of getting used to a more "strict orthodoxy" than they were used to. Met. Epiphanius recognised that and asked from Arch. Andreas not to break communion with the Russians waiting sometime to overcome such problems and not repeat again the same errors of past (see Matthaios' schism). What we can see, in this document is that the Russians through their communication and contact with the greek OCs helped them to to get improved.

Can anyone who knows good greek translate the whole Philaret's letter in English (it's not very long) and post it here for the sake of this dialogue? It's very important.

Last edited by ... on Sun 25 May 2008 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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προσκυνητής
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Post by προσκυνητής »

Christ is risen!

I wish someone could translate everything Salpisma published about and by Met. Epiphanios. I would like to read it.

Romanos
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The content of any of my posts is strictly my own opinion and not the official position of St. Menas Greek Orthodox Chapel, the GOC of Greece, nor any of her clergy.

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Constantine
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Post by Constantine »

Jean-Serge, if you could please re-read my previous post, it takes YOUR comment:

Who would enter in communion with a church that is itself in communion with another church that you declare schismatic?So entering in communion with ROCOR (that was in communion with the Florinites) they fell under their own condemnation of Florinites?

1.The Florintes believe the NC and EP is schismatic and graceless.

2.The florintes know that rocor communes with the EP and NC and uses the NC.

3.The florinites receive bishops from a 2 rocor one of which was a nc rocor bishop.

4.Therefore by your logic the florinites fall under their own anathema, and to recognize their bishops would meen recognizing grace in the nc and EP.

This formula is based on your comments

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Constantine
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Post by Constantine »

This is so not true! The blessed Met. Epiphanios of Kition had admitted that Eugenios Tombros already knew that Theophilus was "heretic"...prior to 1971

Please provide some proof for this, your reputation for making accusations and then not being able to prove them is well known.

"repremants" the Matthewites bishops for keep asking from him (again and again) to expose ROCOR's ecclesiology and for being scandalised so easily by individual incidents.

Met Philaret, had absolutly no authority to "repremant" the Matthewite synod, the matthewites read their confession of faith to rocor in 1971, and the matthewites were told that rocor agreed with it, and the matthewites were told that rocor would issue a written "confession of faith" condeming the new calendar and cutting all ties with world orthodoxy, all the matthewites were doing is asking for what they were promised, if rocor did not want to live up to their promises thats on their heads.

after entering in full communion with the greek bishops they stopped using the economia of allowing some parishes to use the NC.

Please do not say greek bishops, be more clear...the Matthewite bishops, while the florinites communed with rocor, rocor used the nc and the florinites said nothing.

repeat again the same errors of past (see Matthaios' schism)

I find it funny that you call Saint Matthew a schismatic, he uphelp the 1935 confession of faith all his life, Met Chrysostomos betrayed it at least a dozen times, and by doing so cut himself off the GOC, also alot of florinites refer to Met Chrysostomos as "blessed", would you still call him blessed if he didnt return to the confession of faith that Saint Matthew upheld? Would you call him blessed if he died saying their is grace in the NC?

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ROCOR Abp Leonty of Chile

Post by nicholas candela »

I had praised on this list the latest ROAC encyclical, which condemns Sergianism,the new calendar, World Orthodoxy(especially the MP), ecumenism, Kyprianism. I had not, alas, yet read the additions the ROAC synod has made to the Synodicon Of Orthodoxy, to be read every Sunday of Orthodoxy. I cannot sign-on to these additions: In good conscience I cannot say Memory Eternal of M Antony Khrapovitsky: he taught falsely about the calendar schism, as if the 16th century Pan-Orthodox Councils had not occurred, and he wrote that horrendously ambiguous DOGMA OF REDEMPTION (of which he embarrassingly said only a person as enlightened as he can understand!).In good conscience I cannot say Memory Eternal of M Chrysostomos of Florina, who praised the very Stalin the ROAC encyclical calls a tyrant, and who persecuted the GOC, especially St Matthaios, even declaring him to be outside the Church,simply because the Blessed Abp would not agree that those who remained on the Church's calendar were suddenly only "a sentinnel" within the state church of Greece. I cannot say Memory Eternal even of M Philaret, who also taught falsely about the calendar(in 1974, after seeming to teach correctly about it in the 1973 introduction to THE CALENDAR QUESTION by then-ROCOR priest Basile Sakkas:this doublemindeness pervades ROCOR's history )and who in 1969 had no canonical right to regularize the secret uncanonical "consecration" of renegade "Matthewite"
Akakios in 1960,since the co-consecrator was a new calendarist, and according to the ecclesiology of the GOC new calendarists are outside the Church and therefore cannot make bishops for the GOC---and no man, not even a confessor, can will someone who is outside the Church to be considered as within the Church. That ROCOR had a bishop on the new calendar demonstrates her lack of good faith in securing a union with the GOC. In good conscience I cannot say Memory Eternal of M Glycherie of Romania, because there is a possibility his ecclesiology was Kyprianite: the Kyprianites claim him as a Saint: a healthy synod cannot on the one hand condemn Kyprianism and on the other other extol someone whom the Kyprianites regard as one of their own. Finally, I cannot say Memory Eternal of Abp Leonty of Chile. The ROAC's own website in America has Bishop Gregory Grabbe's daughter saying that Abp Leonty of Chile believed the Papists have valid mysteries. Memory Eternal? I wrote to the ROAC bishop in America about this, Bishop Andrei, and he reponded breezily, not with a denial but with what struck me as worldly indifference:"Abp Leonty of Chile was not the only ROCOR hierarch who believed the Papists have valid mysteries." I was slackjawed. Not to mention the fact that in 1962 Abp Leonty of Chile, who believed the Papists were the Church, traipsed throughout Greece making "bishops" with Akakios, thereby further mucking up the situation in Greece.

Code: Select all

  It is now my opinion that ROCOR was a false-flag operation, essentially a mirage in the desert of apostasy. That the synod of Abp Andreas broke with ROCOR in 1976 saved her the grief many in ROCOR underwent, for the ROAC encyclical also states that M Lavr of sorrowful memory said in an interview shortly before his death that ROCOR had been planning the union with the MP since 1980!

The double and triple-mindedness of ROCOR led to her union with the MP, whose head last year addressed Benedict XVI as "a minister of the Church." Ithank God the true GOC wants nothing to do with the ROCOR-MP,and regards their union with ROCOR as an honest mistake. The unions with the "GOCs" was ROCOR's attempt to govern "the Greeks", even though she never shared the GOC's ecclesiology.

Nicholas Candela

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