Pope and Russian Orthodox Church

[TomS]

ROME -- A centuries-old Russian Orthodox painting of the Madonna and Child rests in the apartment of Pope John Paul II, the last stop so far in a journey through Europe from its home in Kazan, a city east of Moscow.

The pontiff had the idea to take it back to Kazan himself on the return from a visit to Mongolia this August. But that didn't happen. The head of the Russian Orthodox Church, hostile to Roman Catholicism, vetoed any stopover, dashing the pope's dearly held wish to make a pastoral visit to Russia. The Mongolia trip ultimately was canceled because of what Vatican officials called concern about John Paul's health.

As John Paul battles with the challenges of age and illness, the disappointment over Russia is a clear example of the unfinished business of his lengthy leadership of the world's 1 billion Roman Catholics. It is not only that Russia remains a gap on the map of the pope's extensive travels -- he has made 102 trips abroad. It is also an important missing piece of his project to reconcile the globe's branches of Christianity, some of which have been feuding for a millennium.

Rest of article here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 3Oct6.html

[ania]

As I said before on another forum, if the pope really wanted to show good will towards Russian Orthodox, he would just hand over the icon, (grand gesture though he might try to make it out to be), rather than use it as a bargining chip.

[Joe Zollars]

boy the fact that he is "trying to reconcile" the "branches of christianity" sure clears up a lot about his unholiness John Paul II.

Joe Zollars

[Anastasios]

Joe,

It does no such thing. It shows that he thinks differently than you. He may be wrong, but he is still a holy person.

Of course the Pope should just give back the icon. Sort of like the Romanian Orthodox should give back the Uniate parishes it stole and did not give back despite its agreement. These things work both ways. People stole and it was a sin. Everything needs to be given back.

Part of the problem is that the Pope has all of the beaurocrats around him constantly harassing him not to give these things back. When the Pope gave the Orthodox three churches in Rome in the past five years traditionalist Roman Catholics freaked. Interesting that no one mentions these acts of good will. Or that the Pope told the Macedonian Orthodox schismatics "no, you can't join union with us because it will tick off the Serbs even more and we don't want to do that." Why is it that only the BAD is reported??

I may beleive Orthodoxy to be the true faith but I really get ticked off when people on any team don't play fair.

anastasios

[Joe Zollars]

how can a person diametrically opposed to the truth be Holy?????? Even by Roman Standards, the Pope is not Holy and not even a Pope. He is a rank heretic as is Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Destruction of the Faith. Read http://www.novusordowatch.org if you don't believe me. Eric takes great strides to make sure everything reported there is true.

Joe Zollars

[Seraphim Reeves]

Anastasios,

He may be wrong, but he is still a holy person.

Are you using that term loosely (the way people say "love" these days, when they really mean "like" - ex. "I LOVE pizza"), or do you really believe there is such a thing as a holy heretic?

Part of the problem is that the Pope has all of the beaurocrats around him constantly harassing him not to give these things back. When the Pope gave the Orthodox three churches in Rome in the past five years traditionalist Roman Catholics freaked.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges here. It's true, there are those around the Pope who are not quite so "liberal" in the way they'd have things passed out, but I'd say their motives are much different than "traditionalists" who would have a fundamental problem with the RCC handing out "sacred sites" to "schismatics."

Interesting that no one mentions these acts of good will.

I don't know what to think of JP II himself, at least of his motives. However, what I can say are that such "gestures" are misguided, or at least misleading to the pseudo-Orthodox who take advantage of them. In JP II's ecclessiology, the Orthodox are already members of his church - there is simply a break down in communication/fraternity between "Orthodox leaders" and the Papacy. The problem, is that no Orthodox Christian could ever reciprocate such a thought - unfortunately, many false bishops pretending to speak in the name of the Church of Christ do just this.

Or that the Pope told the Macedonian Orthodox schismatics "no, you can't join union with us because it will tick off the Serbs even more and we don't want to do that." Why is it that only the BAD is reported??

Pretty indicative of his thinking - which in most respects, doesn't concern me (since I don't believe as a papist, nor do I believe the Pope to be in any way a spiritual leader to whom I owe an account) - however, that it is a style of ecclessiology enthusiastically chased after by some claiming to be Orthodox (and misleading many ignorant people in the process), is unsettling.

The Pope doesn't need, in his own mind, to receive the Macedonians in order for them to have their salvation in order. Apparently we're all, already, in one big "mystical body of Christ." Thus, why formal union? Other than outright sinister reasons, the only one I can think of is a kind of humanism, that see's masonic/revolutionary style "fraternity" as being key to a civilized outlook (along with "equality" and "liberty" - which, btw., have made inroads into Catholicism as well.) Whether JP II is himself a mason, I have no knowledge - but he's definately playing spokesman to their style of thinking (as does his ecumenism.)

Seraphim

[Anastasios]

Seraphim,

Your lack of knowledge about Catholic ecclesiology surprises me. If you read Dominus Iesus, the Vatican makes it clear that the Catholic Church and those in communion with the Pope have the fullness of faith, while Orthodox share in that, they are not the fullness since they lack communion with Peter (per Roman Catholic understanding).

So the Pope telling the Macedonian Orthodox Church no is a big deal because technically they still need to come into communion with Rome in order to be full churches, per Roman understanding.

This indicates that the Pope really was making a sacrifice in the interest of the Serbian Orthodox.

anastasios